Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
I have a lot of fun in this, of course, Sim from Horizon within CA and get to your therapy needs. And the holidays, unfortunately, can accentuate one problem mentally for a lot of people, and that's depression. It's no laughing matter. And depression can be really highlighted through the stress and anxiety that comes in the holiday season. Sam?
[00:00:24] Speaker B: Well, thanks for having me. And I agree with you that this is one of the most difficult conversations for us to have, but I feel it's also the most important conversation to have because the holidays bring a sense of longing and absence that affects us all, but depending on what resources we have available and where we are in our lives, allows us to work with it. But the feeling of that, I feel, is common with all of us.
[00:01:06] Speaker A: Is it a different sense that if you're a parent who lost a loved one, if you're someone who lost a partner or spouse, or just because you feel alone in the holidays?
[00:01:18] Speaker B: It's a combination.
It could be very well where, you know, say you've had a partner for many years and, and there were certain nuances that you did that were independent of you, but they were part of the symmetry of both. Right, right, right. So it could be, you know, let's assume that, you know, Christmas morning Bachelor was the glass of milk or the cookies.
[00:01:49] Speaker A: Right, right, right.
[00:01:50] Speaker B: And now you have the absence of a partner or now you're in an old age home. Well, it's going to bring on a different sense of longing because it's also that the realization that I no longer can do it, but there's also the reminiscence. Right. And that's why this emotion needs a voice, because we all try our best to adjust to it, but I feel as collective. We don't talk about it the way it should, which is in the rawness of it.
[00:02:31] Speaker A: How do I know if the person I love, my family member or friend is depressed? That's what I struggle with.
[00:02:39] Speaker B: Can you walk me through something that would kind of give me a scenario where you're. You had that question. I don't know if they're just feeling.
[00:02:46] Speaker A: Grinchy that day or they're a little burned out or they're a little sad or they, like.
I struggle with understanding the difference between maybe just having a bad day or they're actually depressed.
[00:02:59] Speaker B: So they, they're kind of very similar in terms of emotional reaction. Okay. Because you could be depressed and burnt out, but you could be burnt out and not be depressed.
And one of the simpler ways. That's a poor word to use Simpler is to kind of like, look at it and go, okay, if I gave them something to recharge. So let's say, for example, is it someone elder to you or somebody younger to you? Kind of give me a reference point.
[00:03:36] Speaker A: I was more thinking, after Robin Williams passed away, it came out that he suffered through a lot of depression.
[00:03:42] Speaker B: Right.
[00:03:42] Speaker A: And like millions of people, I found him one of the most entertaining, funniest human beings in the world. I never, I just, in my naive way, didn't think someone that funny and entertainment could be depressed.
[00:03:54] Speaker B: But afterwards, I found out he fought depression for years.
Anthony Bourdain's another good example. Right, exactly right.
[00:04:01] Speaker A: Brilliant.
[00:04:02] Speaker B: Bob Saget. Right.
Yes.
Anyway, before we go. Yeah. So I. I feel what you're asking is, is that how do you read beyond the Mask?
Yes, exactly.
[00:04:14] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:04:18] Speaker B: One, you got to understand the relationship you have with that person, right? So if you're looking within your circle of trust, right. And you know, we're looking at your most intimate circle, and your most intimate circle is your nuclear family, Right. Regardless of the quality of relationship you have within non.
Your. Your first layer.
[00:04:41] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:04:42] Speaker B: As you expand out, this is where like, you know, your social circle comes in, and then you get your environmental circle, and then it expands out.
So as an individual, if you kind of like said, okay, you know what?
I think a very good way to also frame this is let's assume that everyone in their own way has a Charlie Brown Christmas. Oh, okay. So we all have this sense of disconnect where in our own ways we're kind of looking at and going, lucy's doing this, Linus is doing this, penis is doing that, you know, and I'm feeling kind of like, where is the Christmas spirit? Where is everybody? Right.
And if you say, okay, we all share that, but we may share it in different ways or we may see it differently, Right? So if we kind of like just use that one singular example of the spirit of Christmas, right.
And.
And look at it through a generational lens. Right?
So if you look at people that are like boomers, right. For them, it's the longing of Christmas past more in the way it was celebrated. Right.
A very good example. And it's a very simple example. It's. You had fireplaces that you threw logs of wood in, okay.
Now that Same individual in 2025 has to turn on a 70 inch LED well, for the virtual fireplace, right? Yeah. And the way they're getting the sense is through the Febreze wicks, Right.
So their sense of nostalgic longing, depression.
[00:06:23] Speaker A: Right?
[00:06:23] Speaker B: It's very different because the angle of descent.
Because now you're bringing memories back. Right? Okay. You're the observer, right. If you look at it from a generation Xerx, right? They're the Samish generation, right? Because now they're taking care of their parents and they're providing for the generations below. So, you know, they may be. They may have had kids early, so now they're grandparents. So now all of a sudden they are their parents.
Right, but young enough to not be their parents. Parents.
[00:06:57] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:06:58] Speaker B: Right.
But now holidays become a chore for them because they have to provide for everybody to create that spirit.
So their spirit of Christmas, the angle of descent is very different. Okay, that makes sense.
Now you go to the next generation, you go to generation the millennials, right?
They were coming into the digital age, right? So this is like your late 90s kids, right? Early 2000s. So you were still in that analog kind of world, right? Cell phones weren't big. You still went out, you still did stuff.
They're either at the age of. With partners, they're at the age of very young children.
Their angle of descent is very different.
You go one more over. Now, these are the children of the millennials, right? Or they're the late of the Generation Xers, right? For them, the Christmas. The, the.
The.
The spirit of Christmas is of beads, right? Oh, look, you know, that family is going to Mexico for Christmas and they're seeing all these pictures. Their association is this public display, right?
The last generation. They're completely, like, trying to figure themselves out, right? Because they're the great grandkids of the boomers, right? Great, great grandkids of the boomers. They're just trying to find a voice. They're trying to figure out what is Christmas. Is Christmas how they marketed where it starts right after Halloween? Is that Christmas? It wasn't Christmas. That wasn't Christmas for us. Because it was after Remembrance Day always, Right?
[00:08:34] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:34] Speaker B: Christmas Bible thing was after. Remember, everybody respected in Canada, it was respected until Remembrance Day. Now it's like Halloween isn't made its way out. You start seeing.
[00:08:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:47] Speaker B: So now when you look at it.
[00:08:49] Speaker A: Through.
[00:08:51] Speaker B: Charlie Brown, right?
It's still that questioning of what is Christmas.
So you're still experiencing Charlie Brown. You're still understanding Charlie Brown. That's depression in its, in its.
In its own form. But so if you. Now, coming back to the question you asked, how can you differentiate, Find the generation, right? Because you need a reference point. You can't generalize. You can't Assume that they are all feeling the same.
They're sharing something in common. It's very different. We're sharing something in common, but they're not feeling it in the same way with someone.
[00:09:32] Speaker A: 15, 45 or 75 could all be depressed, but in different ways.
[00:09:38] Speaker B: Right? So a good way, a good way to do it. And, and this kind of allows you then to ask a better question. Okay.
So if you look at the feeling of the pressure, right, It's a sense of heaviness.
So one way to measure that is you go, okay, a one heavy, a two heavy, a three heavy, or a four plus heavy. Okay? So now what a one heavy is, it's kind of like you're, you have an ability to self manage.
Okay. So it doesn't matter whether it's the gen Alpha and it doesn't matter whether it's a boomer. Right? There's that sense of I can shake this off. You're not denying it, you're not dismissing it, you're not neglecting it. What you're saying is so going back to the cookies and the milk, right?
[00:10:28] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:10:29] Speaker B: The boomer will then kind of go, you know what?
I miss it.
Honor it. And then they were able to go and function one heavy. Okay? They felt it, they experienced it, but they were able to re regulate on their own without any intervention. Okay. Same thing with take a, take a Gen Xer, right? It'd be like, it is da da da. You know what? I'm gonna do something that I enjoy during Christmas, right? So you could be like, you get up at early in the morning, you take your three sips of coffee, whatever you take in the thing, and you go, okay, I'm good. That's your one heavy. So you're still feeling it, but you have your one.
Your two heavy is you're a little bit more resource dependent.
Now what that means is that you may need, you're conveying it, it's all of us by communication. So you may turn around and say, you know what, I need an hour in the morning. But you're too heavy because it could be something like there was a, something personal in that experience that you're missing. You want to honor that experience, but you can't be around people. You need your Utah. So that's a two heavy.
Too heavy, Charlie Brown depression.
[00:11:46] Speaker A: Got it.
[00:11:47] Speaker B: You're three heavy. That's where you need actual support. So you could be now having direct intervention. So it's kind of like, you know what, kids, we have to go to gramps Christmas afternoon. Spend three hours with them. That's a three heavy.
Where individually you're like, look, I need support.
So you're working with a mental health professional or you know, you're relying on your family where you're a young generation so you could be a Gen Z and for you a three heavy.
And as a parent you're like, listen, we're going to do a 2 o' clock timeout. I'm going to make sure we have two that's a three heavy, okay, four heavy and pass. That's individual, it's complex.
It requires a conversation that's unique to the situation.
And then based on that, then through guide and support we can then find ways on how you can stay in one heavy when you need to, in two heavy when you need to, in three heavy you need to and four heavy plus when you need to.
[00:12:53] Speaker A: Well, and that leads us to something very important we should discuss. It's essential to know how you feel or how well you can work with it. Pay attention to your thoughts and coping responses. And the way you talked about it, you can't ignore it, especially if you're 2, 3, 4 plus. Ignoring it is not good.
Look for signs of avoidance, anxiety, dependence on substances to numb the feelings. And there are signs that speaking to a mental health professional are worth considering. It it I, this is one of the reasons I like talking to you, Sam, is understanding that and, and to just think I'm going to drink and drug it away and I'll feel better could be very dangerous, potentially lethal for someone. But actually taking a few moments to talk to someone like you could be that, that mental shift that really takes the four, three and two away from.
[00:13:40] Speaker B: You or gives you the tool. And I, and I absolutely agree with that, you know, that statement that you shared night and thank you for that.
What it does is what I'm trying to hope is, is that, you know, now you know, you can ask them first, have the conversation. So everybody kind of goes, okay, what does a one look to me with two or three? Okay, so now as the person that wants to make sure that everybody's having a good Christmas because you want to be that gracious host, right? And remember, this is valid only within your first two spheres of, of interaction to your inner core and your first outer core, which is social, the further out you go, it's a bit heavy because they're not going to be like, oh, I feel like a two today because you won't have the tools to help them with. But within your inner circle, you know, you can then say, hey, one or two, like listen, I'm a two, you know what to do, right?
Or if they go, you know, they may now all of a sudden find a way and feel comfortable and they go, hey, you know what? I been hesitating on having this conversation.
But you know, more often than not I sit at three.
Now you know what to do.
[00:14:46] Speaker A: Because to me the worst thing sim is for someone to say when they're like, I'll just snap out of it. It's the holidays. Just stop thinking like that.
[00:14:53] Speaker B: Because we don't have the tools to retort with it. So we kind of get overwhelmed because we do have a desire to help. Whether we are in a professional.
Could be like myself.
[00:15:01] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:15:01] Speaker B: Or in an individual capacity like yourself. But now you have both. You know, when you're looking at it, you know, as a Charlie Brown Christmas, you go, okay, everybody has this. You match it to the generation and you go, you know what the sense of longing changes, what is it? You meet them there, right? You have this other counter measuring tool of weight, of heaviness. We communicate that with you. And they'll go, you know what? I'm a one, two. You're like, okay, because that's part of the season, right? And then you just offered that I'm here if you need me. But if they go, you know, I'm two, I need you around. And you're like, I know what to do because now you guys are meeting where you need to meet because you've communicated. There's a sense of understanding. You're not guessing because that's where it becomes difficult because you then you're probing, where you're asking questions. They may not be able to communicate. It compounds, it turns into frustration where you know, internally you're like, I can't do nothing. Right. They go, nobody can help me. And it's just a spin spiral.
This tool allows communication with clarity.
And to me, you know, I really appreciate the opportunity to have this conversation because it kind of gives both parties a way to communicate that is understandable by all.
Because you're using a singular reference point, which is a Charlie Brown Christmas.
[00:16:19] Speaker A: Because not everyone understands depression or understands how to help someone with it, do they?
[00:16:25] Speaker B: No, because we don't openly speak about it.
[00:16:27] Speaker A: Right?
[00:16:28] Speaker B: Right. It's like, like what we talked about, I think an episode or two back about the ability that it's okay to feel like a Grinch. Right. But we don't know because we have to put on this buddy the elf face. It's no one's fault. It's. It's basically what they're saying is that there's an opportunity to celebrate, but there's also an opportunity for discussion.
[00:16:48] Speaker A: Thank you, Sam.
[00:16:49] Speaker B: Thank you for having me.
[00:16:50] Speaker A: It's a pleasure.
[00:16:51] Speaker B: Absolutely. Thank you.
